Ian Shaw on Stephensong

Widely considered one of the best male jazz vocalists of our modern time, Ian Shaw's career reflects more than three decades of critical acclaim, awards, and over fifteen albums to his name. With plenty of emotional heart, nuance and subtlety, the singer presents his latest album exploring the sublime work of Stephen Sondheim.

Last month, I was beyond thrilled to talk to Ian about his brand new album Stephensong, where he discusses his personal experiences with the composer and the integral relationship with pianist Barry Green, as well as navigating the process of taking songs out of their traditional context and into the genre of jazz… 

I gather that this album has perhaps been a long time in the making…Where did the concept of this album come from? 

Well, I met Sondheim twice: once at the premiere of a film called Postcards From The Edge, where I was singing his songs with a trio. I was very young, maybe my mid-twenties, and afterwards we did a line-up where I met him. The only thing he’s ever said to me in my life is ‘Why don’t you record some of my songs?’ – I just thought he was being nice because he's a nice guy, you know? I didn’t think anything of it, and assiduously avoided any of them in my recording career. I almost recorded ‘Good Thing Going’, because it's almost like a jazz standard – as are quite a few of Sondheim’s other works as Barry and I found out – because he follows a sort of AABA structure with a few twists. 

The second time I met him was at a party in New York. It was at a brownstone party with Marni Nixon, who I knew quite well. We made a joke about the canapes or something, and I thought at the time that maybe I should strike up a conversation with him – that would have been back in the early 2000s.

I’ve seen pretty much everything Sondheim-related that I could have. My good friend Jacqui Dankworth was the original Cinderella in the West End production of Into The Woods, so I went to see that to support her. I suppose that’s kind of an overview as to my history and connection with Stephen Sondheim – or enough for me to say ‘let’s do it’ when Barry kept bringing ideas and arrangements into our quartet. 

‘Anyone Can Whistle’ is the first one we did really in a jazz context, if you can really call it that. Barry solos in these songs, but I sing them pretty much note for note because that’s what Sondheim wrote. I mean, you can phrase the songs differently, or give them different thumbprints, but there’s no need for big changes because the arcs of the melodies and surprises are so intact and integral to the feelings of the piece. 

For pretty much any singer, Sondheim is a goldmine. What was the process like of working with this material?

Initially, I had over forty songs picked out where I’d gathered the sheet music and scores, and I went through the process of taking each song out of context, because there’s no narrative around it. I didn’t want a random collection of songs for the album, so every single song has a zeitgeist kind of meaning for me. A lot of the songs are about protection, fear, bad connections in relationships, or in the world. So my idea with the album is that you can put it on, listen to my take on beautiful songs that originated in shows, and discover that they work outside of them.

Choosing them was hard – there’s so many that I wanted to sing. But I wanted to make my tribute to him almost quasi-religious in a way, hence the title, Stephensong. I can imagine all of these songs being sung in a beautiful acoustic setting by a choir all in unison. 

Did you uncover new nuances within the material as you went along, or map out the emotional take beforehand?

Honestly, I think it was a bit of both. I’m not a studio animal: usually I like being involved with other people’s stuff, or layering up voices, but I’ve always found it a challenge to imprint the moment in a studio. I don’t listen to myself afterwards, aside from choosing the best take. But here, occasionally in the studio I would backphrase things a little bit, or almost besmirch moments by leaning into a gospel riff or something, and I thought ‘whatever, I’ll leave it in!’. If you listen to a lot of the great Sondheim interpreters: Mandy Patinkin, Cleo Laine, Sarah Vaughan, Liz Callaway – they do the same. They appogiate certain things, and I think Sondheim liked that. He loved Sarah Vaughan’s grander take on ‘Send in the Clowns’, and yet that was a million miles away from the original sentiment during the show. 

Were there any songs you were hesitant to undertake?

I think ‘Children Will Listen’, because it is one of my favourite Sondheim songs, I didn’t want to ruin it! When we recorded it, I barely sang it, I whispered it, which worked. I look forward to it in the set now, and get excited when I know it’s coming up. 

Were there emotional challenges or cathartic moments during the making of this album?

We recorded ‘Broadway Baby’, but it didn’t make it onto the final version of the album. I performed it live and that was a catharsis – it’s rarely sung by a male performer. ‘Somewhere’ is cathartic too. I’ve sung that a million times, and performed it at the Jazz For Labour concert with the LGBTQ crowd in the balcony. I’m passionately pro-trans, so when I sing ‘Somewhere’ I think of that. It's a stand against hate, because however you dress it up, hate isn’t good. 

How does the album fit into your larger body of work when you think about your musical career?

Personally, I think it fits really well in my musical journey, because I did an album of Fran Landesman songs with just piano and voice. They’re less complex in some ways, but the density of the narrative and poetry is pretty similar. I did a solo album on my own where I played the piano, Somewhere Towards Love. Emotionally for me, there’s no difference; though I suppose previous albums have maybe been more produced and textually different. 

In terms of the reception of the album out there, I’m not sure. I understand the almost obsessive proprietorial nature of the ‘Sondheim-ites’ – I’m not sure what they think. But there is that sense of ownership amongst fans out there. I hope people realise I’m not trying to out-do anyone. There are so many versions of these songs, and I hope people accept it as just Ian doing great songs, which is something I’ve always tried to do across my career. I hope that I’ve given Sondheim’s work the credence and respect it deserves, and some form of new footprint.  

What do you hope listeners take away from Stephensong?

I’d like them to listen to Barry! I think he’s one of the best pianists on the planet, and as unexpected as it is for me to sing it, even more so for Barry. I hope that maybe for fans of my work that aren’t as familiar with Sondheim, that it might inspire them to go and listen to some other stuff. And perhaps when they come and see me sing live, they’ll be going in with a completely different context.

I suppose I’d quite like it to sit in the canon of what is known primarily as the Great American Songbook. I’m sure Stephen Sondheim would have appreciated his lineage in that course of musical history. 

Leading on from that, what did Barry Green bring to the project?

What’s lovely is that Barry does some soloing within these songs. Initially, he wasn’t pushing to take any solos, but I was of the opinion that he absolutely should! When we did the show, he took a solo in pretty much all of them, which was just wonderful. He has a very strident way of playing solos, and everything is so intentional – there’s never a note that’s not meant to be played. It was so interesting to hear him solo over those chord progressions as well.

He also brought an obvious passion for the original score. He was fascinated by the intro of ‘Take Me To The World’ for example, and his orchestrations were really thorough. Together, we just embraced this colla voce and time-free style which was so beautiful. He had his own sense of space and time that I was just happy to swirl around in – I didn't need to look at him once whilst we were performing. It was almost like a string section in parts because he’s such an orchestral player, but he also has heaps of the Bill Evans and Barry Harris modal sound about his piano playing too. I’ve done many gigs with him, and as a pianist he’s my first port of call, but for this project it felt like a real sharing of the music, rather than him playing the piano whilst I’m singing.

What’s coming up this year for you?

In January I’m doing a season at Pizza Express in Dean Street, doing fifteen shows. I have some guests for them including Natalie Williams, Guy Barker, Vanessa Haynes, Iain Ballamy, my Italian band – so that’s exciting. 

We’re also doing two shows of the Sondheim at Ronnie Scott’s in March, just piano and voice. We’re touring the Sondheim shows as well. I’m making a point to be really specific with where to take that show, because the acoustics of the venue are so important. So that’s what’s coming up!